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Saturday, 08 March 2008

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XT

I have little idea what the exhortation to support our troops really means, particularly when it is said that we can support them without supporting the war. If this is so then clearly it cannot mean wishing them success.

I think they are promoting the idea that the war was a 'mistake' rather than a 'crime'. To be fair, a lot of people in the mainstream who oppose the war often seem to see it that way. I've lost count of the times I've heard people say: "they should have done it in 91 when they had the chance"...."I would have supported it if it had a second UN resolution"...."by not sending enough troops they messed it up", and so on.

JamieSW

The most sensible statement I've read on the matter - nice one. It should all be so obvious.

Would you mind if I posted this on UK Watch when the server's back up (with proper attribution and a link)?

Ekk

I wasn't going to comment on your argumentation, because it is superb/brilliant (what more can one say :), but found it touching some deep streams I had not swum in lately.
So call this supportive argument/supplementary comment:

When I decided to become a conscientious objector refusing to join the [West] German military my main concern/objection was, that I could/would be ordered by someone else [superior officer] to go and kill another person against my own/better personal judgment. (In times of war much of that judgment is already no more 'personal', but clouded/biased by outside propaganda).
Genetically I've inherited the poaching/hunting/killing instinct from both sides of my family, whose men/fathers literally brought home the [wild] meat during/after times of war when famine meant other local families went hungry. Killing fish/game to be eaten is a red/raw streak, something I've done myself. Nothing to be proud or ashamed off , just something that is not unusual/unnatural IMO, something people may well be going back to if/when the/this next financial/economic collapse comes about.

However, your excellent exposition has reminded me of nightmares experienced as a young man, whereby I was ordered to kill another human being against my will. IMO something inevitable once you've been shipped abroad to fight in a/any war. I have it from trustworthy first-hand sources (my dad, his step-dad [father died in WWI] grandfather on my mother's side & surviving uncles), that there was no choice when you are in military uniform in wartime.
The stockades should be employed much earlier on to bow the head of those promoting wars.
Ekk

Gerbil001

XT -'mistake' is a term often applied to the invasion of Iraq. I don't agree that it was a mistake -in the commonly understood sense of a misconceived but well-intention act- I think it was a crime, pure and simple. However, by doctrinal convention "we" can never commit crimes because it is assumed from the start that our intentions are always good. Hence a mistake is the worst of which we are capable.

Even if I did think it was a mere mistake to invade Iraq (or Afghanistan), I would still argue that supporting the troops in the ongoing exacerbation of that mistake would be wrong. The argument used by many now is that, yes, the initial invasion was a mistake but that we should now stay there to correct it. This is a standard imperialist argument, which overlooks the obvious fact that it is not our right to decide how to correct our mistake. This is all the more clear when our continued presence is in direct opposition to the wishes of the Iraqis themselves.

JamieSW -please feel to post this wherever you wish (with links and attribution, as you say). I'm glad that you appreciate what was very much a spur-of-the moment piece.

Ekk - I'm glad to have written something that has struck a chord with you. Clearly, you have more first hand experience of the matters I have discussed. Conscientious objection is more needed now than ever.

G001

Chris

Well, it was definitely well written. However, myself being a windbag and all, I can't help but be angered by your anger toward the military. I've never been one to write my feelings down, or express them properly for that matter, but I will write just for the sake of.

You're kind of right. I find it a bit embarrassing to be getting all this attention as a soldier, when I know that the praise is to be meant for soldiers better than myself, who’ve sacrificed a lot more than I have, and actually lives the life of protecting innocents and cleaning up the world’s dirt bags. And yes, there are bad people in the world, and by everyone's standards too.

Slightly off topic, I will say that those who rely on the News for all of their credible information are incredibly naïve. Believe it or not, the media is a business and they stand to profit or lose from what they decide to publish. Many distort the facts to improve a story or even push their own agenda/propaganda (Al Jazeera News for example). Just remember, there are always things’ happening outside of the general public’s knowledge. And to all those who say that everything can be solved without violence… well lets just agree to disagree.

Back to the topic, I say it’s easy to be a critic. You risk very little yet get applauded for your opinions. Not just in reference to movies, but in real life too. And just like real life, there are things that people won’t understand unless they can say, “I was there.” or, “I was part of that.”
And even then, there are still very few who can say they really have a good “big picture” overview of any given situation.

You don’t support troops, fine.

My way of thinking is if you feel so strongly about something, then do something about it. Rather than argue about who’s right, who’s wrong: join a side already. In the case of foreign affairs, become a politician. Become a country-specific journalist. Join NATO. Join the military. Join the terrorists… or freedom fighters. Whatever. Then come back and tell everyone your unbiased opinion. Otherwise you’re a critic with an uninformed opinion.

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